From mchang AT ece.nwu.edu Wed Dec  9 09:53:12 1998
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:39:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark L. Chang 
To: Quattro List 
Cc: Mark Chang 
Subject: Wheels for '87 4kcsq

Well, among other upgrades, which include suspension and stereo (which is
now almost done .. still missing some low-end thump -- did someone say
"sub"), I would love to get some wheels.

Found some Borbet 15x7 Type C wheels in good condition and good price.
I've searched the archives, and it seems that the 87 4kcsq has a 4-bolt
108mm pattern, right (prolly not)?

quoting Ti Kan:
All 4000 sedans have 4-bolt wheels.  The early cars have 100mm bolt circle
whereas the later ones 108mm.  The Fuchs wheels that were optional on
the Urquattro and 5KTQ come only in the 5x112mm pattern, so they won't
fit 4000s.  If you want bigger wheels for the 4000 you would have to go
after-market.  I was lucky to buy a set of 15 inch Ronal R8 wheels in
4-bolt form when they were still available.  These are the same design as
the factory wheels (used in various forms on the Urquattro, 80-83 5KT,
1984 4Kq and coupe GT, 1985-87 4K, 4Kq and coupe GT, and some 5KCS
non-turbo models). But the R8 has long been discontinued...
-- end quote

What Ti seems to be saying is that on my 87 4kq, I've got 15" Ronals.  It
is true that I have the stock white wheels, I didn't think they were 15".

Anyways, I'm getting a bit confused.  What wheels do I have (didn't
measure them, I know, my bad), and can I get those Borbet 15x7s?

Thanks so much,
Mark

                    [PGP] finger mchang AT ece.nwu.edu


From quattro AT rogerswave.ca Wed Dec  9 09:53:17 1998
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:35:26 +0000
From: Martin Pajak 
To: mchang AT ece.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: Wheels for '87 4kcsq

> What Ti seems to be saying is that on my 87 4kq, I've got 15" Ronals.  It
> is true that I have the stock white wheels, I didn't think they were 15".
> 
> Anyways, I'm getting a bit confused.  What wheels do I have (didn't
> measure them, I know, my bad), and can I get those Borbet 15x7s?

 Mark

I bet you Ti confused a lot of people by inserting that remark about 
the wheels on his car.  
What you have is a 14 x 6 size ET 45 (that is the offset) 16 spoke R8 
rim with the 4 x 108mm bolt pattern.
If you want the 15 x 7 to fit you will have to change the offset to 
about ET 35 - 40 to move the wheel out a little.  Otherwise it might 
rub the tie rods in the front if you run fat tires.  It is very 
important to check the wheel offset before you buy it. They might not 
fit as well as you would like them 
HTH


Martin Pajak
quattro AT rogerswave.ca
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5939

1982 Coupe TURBO (473,150 km)
1984 4000s quattro (soon to be a rally car)
1986 4000s quattro (300,000 km)
1970 Porsche 911E Targa (for sale)


From upchurch AT cdicadwa.com Wed Dec  9 09:53:35 1998
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:21:50 -0800
From: Sean Upchurch 
To: Mark L. Chang 
Cc: quattro AT coimbra.ans.net
Subject: Re: Wheels for '87 4kcsq

Mark L. Chang wrote:
> 
> Well, among other upgrades, which include suspension and stereo (which is
> now almost done .. still missing some low-end thump -- did someone say
> "sub"), I would love to get some wheels.
> 
> Found some Borbet 15x7 Type C wheels in good condition and good price.
> I've searched the archives, and it seems that the 87 4kcsq has a 4-bolt
> 108mm pattern, right (prolly not)?
> 
 The 87 4kcsq is a 4  x 108 mm hole pattern.  And the Borbet's will fit
if they are the same pattern.    One thing though, most people have had
problems fitting 205/50-15 tires without rubbing in the back.  I had the
same problem so I went with 195/50-15 tires, but that is a slightly
smaller circumference than stock ( about 3% I believe.)  This is all
based on a 35mm wheel offset (which I think the Borbet's are.)  If you
have a bigger offset, in the range of 38 to 40 mm, you should not have
the rubbing problem.

-- 
Sean Upchurch
Design Engineer
CDI CAD Services, http://www.cdicadwa.com 
11711 N. Creek Parkway S.
Suite 109
Bothell, WA 98011

Phone:  425-486-9010
Fax:     425-486-8849

87 4kcsQ
From ti AT bazooka.amb.org Wed Dec  9 09:53:43 1998
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:13:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Ti Kan 
To: mchang AT ece.nwu.edu
Cc: quattro AT coimbra.ans.net
Subject: Re: Wheels for '87 4kcsq

Mark L. Chang writes:
> quoting Ti Kan:
> All 4000 sedans have 4-bolt wheels.  The early cars have 100mm bolt circle
> whereas the later ones 108mm.  The Fuchs wheels that were optional on
> the Urquattro and 5KTQ come only in the 5x112mm pattern, so they won't
> fit 4000s.  If you want bigger wheels for the 4000 you would have to go
> after-market.  I was lucky to buy a set of 15 inch Ronal R8 wheels in
> 4-bolt form when they were still available.  These are the same design as
> the factory wheels (used in various forms on the Urquattro, 80-83 5KT,
> 1984 4Kq and coupe GT, 1985-87 4K, 4Kq and coupe GT, and some 5KCS
> non-turbo models). But the R8 has long been discontinued...
> -- end quote
> 
> What Ti seems to be saying is that on my 87 4kq, I've got 15" Ronals.  It
> is true that I have the stock white wheels, I didn't think they were 15".

No, all the factory Ronal R8s found on the 4000s and coupes are 14" 4-bolt.
The 15"s came on the Urquattro and early 5000Ts (5-bolt only).  The later
5000CS non-turbos had 14" 4-bolt.  My 15" 4-bolt R8 is not a factory
configuration (not on U.S. models anyway).

> Anyways, I'm getting a bit confused.  What wheels do I have (didn't
> measure them, I know, my bad), and can I get those Borbet 15x7s?

You have 14" 4x108 wheels.  If you go to 15x7, you need lower profile
tires to match, either 195/50-15 or 205/50-15.  You have to be careful
with getting the correct offset wheels to prevent rubbing.

-Ti
96 A4 2.8 quattro
84 5000S 2.1 turbo
80 4000 2.0
-- 
    ///  Ti Kan                Vorsprung durch Technik
   ///   AMB Research Laboratories, Sunnyvale, CA. USA
  ///    Internet: ti AT amb.org
 //////  UUCP:     ...!uunet!bazooka!ti
///      URL:      http://sunsite.unc.edu/~cddb/tikan/

From David.Eaton AT COMPUTERLAND.CO.NZ Wed Dec  9 09:54:37 1998
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:10:40 +0100
From: David Eaton 
To: "'quattro AT coimbra.ans.net'" 
Subject: RE: big wheels on Audi

some ruminations on the wheels/tyres thing; a few factors to take into
account when putting larger wheel/tyre combinations on your audi.  i
welcome discussion on any point below, or things which i haven't thought
about...

1) unsprung weight.  you should try and ensure that the weight of the
wheels & tyres is as close as possible to that of the old combinations.
higher unsprung weight will affect spring & damper performance, and so,
handling.  these things can, of course, be changed, but not without a
lot of experimentation to get them right.  larger wheel/tyre
combinations can easily add many kgs to the unsprung weight of the car
and put a much heavier load on the springs and (particularly) the
dampers, with the result being the ride shot to peices.  to cope with
this you need better dampers.

for example, here in new zealand, there are any number of honda crx's
with 17" wheels, 35 section tyres with lowered springs, and so much bump
steer and bad damping that they have major problems going around
corners.  this is a classic example of the consequences of paying no
attention to damping.

2) rolling diameter of the wheel.  increasing the rolling diameter of
the wheel will have a number of undesirable effects.
	- speedo inaccuracy
	- raising the roll radius and ride height of the car, which again will
affect turn-in and cornering.
	- clearance to the guards/fenders under lock/full bump

where possible, keep the diameter of the wheels much the same.  a good
handling car can be ruined by a relatively small increase in ride
height.

3) adhesion and handling.  larger tyres do not necessarily a good
handling car make.  there are a number of factors to take into account.

- the rim width will affect tyre sidewall flex.  generally, the wider
the rim, the straighter the sidewall, the better the turn-in and the
firmer the handling.  the ur-q is a good example of this with it's wide
rims on 215/50's which result in vertical sidewalls.  on the opposite
end of the scale is some old avants with major sidewall flex on 60
section tyres (for comfort).

- contact area of the tyre will change with different tyre profiles.
generally speaking the more the contact patch changes longitudinally
(ie. larger diameter, smaller width), the better the braking and
traction, the more the contact patch changes horizontally (ie. greater
width, smaller diameter), the better the turn-in and cornering.

- the larger the contact area the better the dry weather adhesion, and
the worse the wet weather adhesion.

as an example of this, the ur-quattro has oem ronal 15x8j wheels and
215/50 tyres.  due to the width of the rims and the relative narrowness
of tyres, the sidewalls are vertical which is partly responsible for the
quattro's sharp turn-in and "strapped to the road" feel.  simply putting
235/45 tyres on the car, which will result in negligible change in ride
height, will introduce more sidewall flex due to the greater width of
the tyre, will *reduce* wet weather performance and braking, but will
improve dry grip and braking, but reduce turn-in. a good idea? you
decide.

hth,
dave.
'95 rs2
'90 ur-q